I've always been intrigued by this idea of eldership in the church and in the city. Thanks for putting so much thought into it.
One thing that you said that I might push back on (or ask you to reconsider) is that when Paul says than Elder must be able to teach that it doesn't need to be on stage. That part I agree with, but I don't think he means teaching a grandkid how to ride a bike. Teaching there, I believe, is specific to the teaching of the word. Now, I believe we learn how to be better teachers by simply experiencing life - and being a good teacher can translate to other areas of life, but I don't think we can/should apply eisegesis here, but rather stick to what the text is actually saying.
Now, maybe our model of church is off a bit and teaching doesn't look the way we think it would on a sunday morning (or saturday or whatever), I'm willing to be more flexible in the circumstance, I just think it's clearly talking about teaching the word and making disciples.
It really is difficult to imagine what city elders would look like now, because our cities are so divided in worldview and ideology that it almost just looks like applying The Faith to being present in our communities. Building businesses, raising kids who are also present and follow our fatherly leadership, etc. It will be interesting to see what it looks like when we're actually in this stage of life.
Keeping going, man. This stuff is fascinating and really worthwhile. You're one of the good ones, Tim.
Hmm… I’d have to look into it more to have a better understanding about the parameters of “teaching.” I don’t see anything that limits the teaching skill to teaching scripture, although it would obviously include that. And there’s even different methods for teaching scripture, too (ie stage, group discussion, 1 on 1, etc). When I think of elders who preside at the city gates, I see them teaching a host of skills from their experience.
And yes, I don’t really know what the city gates concept looks like today. It could just be places of influence? I’m not sure.
“…holding to the faithful message as taught, so that he will be able both to encourage with sound teaching and to refute those who contradict it.”
Titus 1:9
It is specifically talking about having sound doctrine and warning the church of false teachers. Location or format doesn’t seem to matter, but it’s definitely about guiding people in the scriptures.
Again, that’s not to say teaching other things/skills is bad or not good, but the direction to elders is dealing with scripture.
I think another good question we should ask is what the purpose was of the elders meeting at the gates. Do you have any insight into that?
Thanks for this. I appreciate the clarity. I certainly think it includes this kind of teaching. The thing that leads me to think that it’s not exclusively teaching scripture is that the stories we have about how elders function are not stories about teaching scripture. They’re stories about teaching others biblical principles and governing with wisdom that comes from scripture.
Ruth 4 - Land, property, marriage dispute
1 Kings 12 - political and strategic counsel about governance
Job 29 - protecting the community from the wicked
Numbers 11 - judging disputes among the people
So yes, they must be grounded in scripture and able to teach it, but also use it practically for how they lead and make decisions, which leads to teaching through example and practical wisdom about life, business, family matters, and community affairs. That’s why I don’t see their ability to teach as exclusively teaching scripture. It’s seems to me that it includes life stuff, too, given the stories about their function.
I appreciate you helping me think through this! Keep pushing me!
Anyway, I just think the passages talking the qualifications of an elder are specific. The functions you mentioned aren’t necessarily the same (though Paul certainly talks about managing our lives a certain way in order to be considered). So if you can teach someone to manage their livestock but not teach sound doctrine, I think that disqualifies. But if you have sound doctrine AND can teach a man to fish, that adds to benefit of the people for sure.
I just read back through the post and I see now what you're reacting to in the post. Thank you for pointing that out and giving me an opportunity to be clearer. I tweaked it a bit to align better with the perspective I think we both have. It's not perfect, but I'll be more careful about it in future posts. Thank you, Matt!
I agree with that 100%. Maybe I just misunderstood your previous comments. You must be able to teach the Word. That’s what qualifies you to be able to apply it to practical, everyday life, situations with people in the city. Does that mean a stage presentation kind of teaching as a prerequisite? I think that’s the context in which most of us think of teaching today, and it certainly includes that, but being “able” to do that is different than those who are gifted with that kind of skill. I think it’s about being able to correctly handle the Word of Truth that qualifies you to teach it in a variety of life contexts and formats (ie not always from a stage). It’s the ability to make it “profitable” for people.
“All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.”
I’m a young guy “drowning in the toddler chaos” (haha…) reading this about what life could be like in 40 years and wondering how I fit (or if that’s even the right question). I love your vision casting and encouragement, except what role should I play right now?
A few weeks ago, you mentioned wanting to develop the muscle of leading without being in charge. I never considered that being a valuable skill, but can’t help but see the connection here. For us young folks, I think leading without being in charge needs us to answer (at least) two questions:
1. How do we make space for our elders to speak decades of wisdom in work, faith, marriage, and trials into our families and help them realize this purpose (if they want to)?
2. What gets in the way to stop those in their 70s from sharing and how do we hedge against it? Is it fear their wisdom is not welcome or they won’t have something useful to say? I’m literally asking anyone reading this.
It’s up to our older and wiser community if they want to step into this role, but to what extent can we make it as easy as possible for them?
I think inviting your parents on family trips, encouraging them to share family history, and making it fun and novel are awesome examples.
I don't think this is a post for you or I right now. You and I are in a different season of life. We have young kids at home and are still learning to father our homes well. This post is more about casting a vision for what we're looking forward to one day, as well as hopefully encouraging any stagnant elder to take some initiative in their city.
However, I love your questions. They're super insightful and practical. Here's my attempt at wrestling with them:
1. A natural time for our family would be to include them in our Shabbat rhythm, both to help lead it as well as to be around casually for conversation. Carving out another time isn't as sustainable as inviting them into an existing family rhythm that's already in place.
2. I'm not sure on this one. I've asked several of these types of people for their wisdom in various situations, and I regularly get something like, "Oh, well, you'll have to figure that out." Or, "I don't give advice." It's kinda frustrating. So I think I just need to keep asking around.
I agree it starts with inviting them to play that role. I'm not sure what to do when someone you invite says, "No."
This is incredible. I had this exact thought about a close relation recently. I thought, I hope I’m doing much more in my “retirement” years. So sad to see them not see their value.
I've always been intrigued by this idea of eldership in the church and in the city. Thanks for putting so much thought into it.
One thing that you said that I might push back on (or ask you to reconsider) is that when Paul says than Elder must be able to teach that it doesn't need to be on stage. That part I agree with, but I don't think he means teaching a grandkid how to ride a bike. Teaching there, I believe, is specific to the teaching of the word. Now, I believe we learn how to be better teachers by simply experiencing life - and being a good teacher can translate to other areas of life, but I don't think we can/should apply eisegesis here, but rather stick to what the text is actually saying.
Now, maybe our model of church is off a bit and teaching doesn't look the way we think it would on a sunday morning (or saturday or whatever), I'm willing to be more flexible in the circumstance, I just think it's clearly talking about teaching the word and making disciples.
It really is difficult to imagine what city elders would look like now, because our cities are so divided in worldview and ideology that it almost just looks like applying The Faith to being present in our communities. Building businesses, raising kids who are also present and follow our fatherly leadership, etc. It will be interesting to see what it looks like when we're actually in this stage of life.
Keeping going, man. This stuff is fascinating and really worthwhile. You're one of the good ones, Tim.
Hmm… I’d have to look into it more to have a better understanding about the parameters of “teaching.” I don’t see anything that limits the teaching skill to teaching scripture, although it would obviously include that. And there’s even different methods for teaching scripture, too (ie stage, group discussion, 1 on 1, etc). When I think of elders who preside at the city gates, I see them teaching a host of skills from their experience.
And yes, I don’t really know what the city gates concept looks like today. It could just be places of influence? I’m not sure.
“…holding to the faithful message as taught, so that he will be able both to encourage with sound teaching and to refute those who contradict it.”
Titus 1:9
It is specifically talking about having sound doctrine and warning the church of false teachers. Location or format doesn’t seem to matter, but it’s definitely about guiding people in the scriptures.
Again, that’s not to say teaching other things/skills is bad or not good, but the direction to elders is dealing with scripture.
I think another good question we should ask is what the purpose was of the elders meeting at the gates. Do you have any insight into that?
Thanks for this. I appreciate the clarity. I certainly think it includes this kind of teaching. The thing that leads me to think that it’s not exclusively teaching scripture is that the stories we have about how elders function are not stories about teaching scripture. They’re stories about teaching others biblical principles and governing with wisdom that comes from scripture.
Ruth 4 - Land, property, marriage dispute
1 Kings 12 - political and strategic counsel about governance
Job 29 - protecting the community from the wicked
Numbers 11 - judging disputes among the people
So yes, they must be grounded in scripture and able to teach it, but also use it practically for how they lead and make decisions, which leads to teaching through example and practical wisdom about life, business, family matters, and community affairs. That’s why I don’t see their ability to teach as exclusively teaching scripture. It’s seems to me that it includes life stuff, too, given the stories about their function.
I appreciate you helping me think through this! Keep pushing me!
I think the differentiation we have to make is between qualification and function.
You MUST be able to teach and have sound doctrine is a qualification. Just because someone
It sent to quickly. Still learning Substack 🫠
Anyway, I just think the passages talking the qualifications of an elder are specific. The functions you mentioned aren’t necessarily the same (though Paul certainly talks about managing our lives a certain way in order to be considered). So if you can teach someone to manage their livestock but not teach sound doctrine, I think that disqualifies. But if you have sound doctrine AND can teach a man to fish, that adds to benefit of the people for sure.
I just read back through the post and I see now what you're reacting to in the post. Thank you for pointing that out and giving me an opportunity to be clearer. I tweaked it a bit to align better with the perspective I think we both have. It's not perfect, but I'll be more careful about it in future posts. Thank you, Matt!
I agree with that 100%. Maybe I just misunderstood your previous comments. You must be able to teach the Word. That’s what qualifies you to be able to apply it to practical, everyday life, situations with people in the city. Does that mean a stage presentation kind of teaching as a prerequisite? I think that’s the context in which most of us think of teaching today, and it certainly includes that, but being “able” to do that is different than those who are gifted with that kind of skill. I think it’s about being able to correctly handle the Word of Truth that qualifies you to teach it in a variety of life contexts and formats (ie not always from a stage). It’s the ability to make it “profitable” for people.
“All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.”
2 Timothy 3:16-17
Is that what you’re saying, too?
I’m a young guy “drowning in the toddler chaos” (haha…) reading this about what life could be like in 40 years and wondering how I fit (or if that’s even the right question). I love your vision casting and encouragement, except what role should I play right now?
A few weeks ago, you mentioned wanting to develop the muscle of leading without being in charge. I never considered that being a valuable skill, but can’t help but see the connection here. For us young folks, I think leading without being in charge needs us to answer (at least) two questions:
1. How do we make space for our elders to speak decades of wisdom in work, faith, marriage, and trials into our families and help them realize this purpose (if they want to)?
2. What gets in the way to stop those in their 70s from sharing and how do we hedge against it? Is it fear their wisdom is not welcome or they won’t have something useful to say? I’m literally asking anyone reading this.
It’s up to our older and wiser community if they want to step into this role, but to what extent can we make it as easy as possible for them?
I think inviting your parents on family trips, encouraging them to share family history, and making it fun and novel are awesome examples.
I don't think this is a post for you or I right now. You and I are in a different season of life. We have young kids at home and are still learning to father our homes well. This post is more about casting a vision for what we're looking forward to one day, as well as hopefully encouraging any stagnant elder to take some initiative in their city.
However, I love your questions. They're super insightful and practical. Here's my attempt at wrestling with them:
1. A natural time for our family would be to include them in our Shabbat rhythm, both to help lead it as well as to be around casually for conversation. Carving out another time isn't as sustainable as inviting them into an existing family rhythm that's already in place.
2. I'm not sure on this one. I've asked several of these types of people for their wisdom in various situations, and I regularly get something like, "Oh, well, you'll have to figure that out." Or, "I don't give advice." It's kinda frustrating. So I think I just need to keep asking around.
I agree it starts with inviting them to play that role. I'm not sure what to do when someone you invite says, "No."
This is incredible. I had this exact thought about a close relation recently. I thought, I hope I’m doing much more in my “retirement” years. So sad to see them not see their value.